Play time: 18:25 minutes. Recorded in Mago, Kenya, April 3, 2014.

Lukali (Interview)

Jedda Mmbone

Mutevi: Mukere ngoteva kijira ki vakali vatsitsa lukali na vasatsa valeta vakali?

Mutevwa: Chajira vasatsa valeta vakali na vakali vatsia lukali ni kijira valombanga lwuvulu. Mundu musatsa nukamenye vutsa na nuveye nu mukali mu ulangwe mundu? Vavugulanaga kijira valomba mukali nu musatsa ma nivavola mukali alatsia ku musatsa atsie kolomba lushai watsiyi na mukana naye atsie ku musatsa atsie kolomba ulushai wanga musatsa; nivahambanyia vandu vene yavo. Kijira vujira mukali ngani vandu yava vaveye kunu dave; vujira livula ngani vandu yava vaveye kunu? Yicho chajira vavola mukali ulatula yengo winyu utsie ku musatsa nu mukana na yive ulatula winyu utsie ku musatsa ma mulombe ulushia. Ku ilwo lwa mulolanga lushia lwa Abraham nu lulanda kijira nyasaye yavolela Abraham ndakwamila avana ku magina. Lushai lwene yilu lulandanga kijira gene yago. Yive nuva weng'ine ma wivuli? Paga muve vavili ku nangwa molombe lushia lwa komolomela mu yilu.

Mutevi: Liletana lwu kutanga vayanzana anoho vahenza mundu na aveye ni vindu; miandu kuli kololalnga mundu naveye ni tsisendi vamulonda tsa yaha ni yaha?

Mutevwa: Awa. Kale galange vutsa lwa vakutevi nu musatsa, ave aveye mwere munyi vene mulatsia kolomba vindu vyinyu; sivavolanga kijira vutuji dave kijira vutuji vwa kale vwalange uvuchima. Tsisendi tsialange ku dave ku valolanga musatsa na aveye nu mulimi ma vavola "mukana uyu utsie ku mundu uyu ku mutsie mulombe vindu vyinyu. Si valange nu vutuji dave; vutuji sa mwahambananga ma mutsia mutanga lilomba; kuguli kagondi, kuguli kagoko. Kagoko kakarura ku mufwana vandu va muveye hango. Ling'ondo lialange ku dave kandi vahenzanga mutsie wu mutuji dave. Kali va kale valolanga mundu mutuji vavola "uh uh, yive ndi wavilukila mu vudaka, ulatsia ku mutuji ma nunyale?" Ma vandu vavolanga mudaka utsie ku musatsa mudaka mulombe ivyinyu; ku vakali vahenzanga kijira vutuji dave. Kalunu ilwo lwu mundu avola "ha nzia ki ha vavuyu hi kindu kivula." Kali na yive mwivuli onyola wunga mwana "utsitsa ki wa vavuyu mmbudaka, dave." Vavola ustie mutsie kolomba vindu vyinyu na muyanzane tsa.

Mutevi: Kijira ki vandu valogolo anoho vafrika vavugulanga mukali natsiyi lukali ni yivuye avana vakana vere avula kivune hango ha atsiyi?

Mutevwa: Vavugulanga avana vakana kijira mwana muikana kali kale yanyola ku kindu hango have dave. Vavolanga mukana atsie kolomba lwalo nu muyayi naye alete mukali hango ku musakulu naye alangwe yayivula vijana vyaleta vakali hango. Vayayi kali na kalunu vaveye ni tsingulu kuvita vakana.

Muteva: Kali yive wavugulila mundu niyivuye vakana alangwe yaivula tsa makere?

Mutevwa: Wahenda mwoyo okola "ndali nzivuli ku kalininda hango yaha vakana yava lwa valitsia nandigale naki?" Ku nutigaye na kayayi kalete mukali ku kakonye hango ku hango hakume; havavuyu.

Muteva: Kijira ki liletana lia vakali na vasatsa si vavugilila mundu koleta mwiko dave?

Mutevwa: Vwali vudinyu kijira yive ndi si oveye hango hinyu yaho, mwana wovo si yatsia lukali, mukana aveye yo wivuyi avana, kandi amwavo wovo alete mukali yivuli anoho mbotso wovo atsiyi wa atsiyi ku yivuye mwana mu mwana mwene uyu valetane dave. Va kale vavolanga mwakaduka mu vusiala lwu mundu avolatsa musiala wange na aleta mukere mwene nakikili mwoyo dave. Lwa alikutsa, musakulu ukurtsi vatigala vasiala, vene yava vatsitsa koletana. Navutswa vumwavo, vuvotso; si mwenga. Ni mwalagilanga vuchima halala mwenganga. Si mwalombanga lushia lwinyu dave; lushia lwinyu lwalange vutsa. Si olola na kalunu vavola; no ololi muletani aviko mutsie kwenya tsinyasi. Mukana na asuyi vutswa ahandi ku musatsa na musatsa na asuyi vutsa uhandi ku mukali vwiko vwene yivo vuve vuveye kuho hambeta, apana vwa guga uyu dave; ku vamanya vavika kekereko kunyumba igulu kijira vasula ma valola ku kakola ndi? kuviki ku kekereko.

Muteva: Vavika ku tsinyumba tsikikili tsiu vunyansi, kali kalunu ndi viko valetana lakini kekereko chavikwa ku dave.

Mutevwa: Na si olola likutsa liuveye linyinge. Nohenza tsa mwiko washila mbotso weve, hango hehe havetsa ku halahi mba; valema vaveye mu, vavedeki tsimoni; vivula ku mwana mulungi samu dave.

Muteva: Sasa ni kindu cha hatari na vakere na vasakulu va kalunu vachigitsa mu liva liene yili kolola vana vagenda na vavotso na makosa gatulila. Molola mang'ana gene yago gatsitsagilila ndio anoho ndi?

Mutevwa: Na vigitsi ndi na kali vasakulu tsana vegomba visukulu? Ku ni kwa lilana ndio kulakalwa vawngu; si umala mihiga jia vakovolela jila da. Kandi mukwasi wovo naveye hango atakugadilitsa ku muve naye dave; uleti chitano mu mugitsi gwene yigu.

Muteva: Komoloma amang'ana kuli kovolitsa; nu mukana avolitsa anoho nu muyayi avolitsa?

Mutevwa: Muyayi niye wavolitsa mukana. Na kalunu lwa avana voneka tsa kali novola ku vutsa ngwenyanji; mukana akolonda. Na kale wiluka paga muyayi akiyi kwive kali mieli sita ku aladuki ku yive.

Muteva: Kalunu viselelo vya va viangu kandi malago malala vandu vatia.

Mutevwa: Keselelo kale charange cha kwimba na mavambuli na kindi ketongera. Kuli cho olola vatsa nu mudoga yiki ndi, ni gava ndalola tsa mbeye ni kindu dave, ndakola ketongera.

Muteva: Malago gi limenya ovola vakere valiho vigitsa. Vwaha anyala kwigitsa malago gi limenya kalunu?

Mutevwa: Kalunu avula. Vang'ele yava si olola ku vavolela vagumuli malago gitu. Ohenze mu yinze mu ligenda liange. Obimi olole lwa ndatula ivologoli ni nzitsa hano kindiki changola; ndakola kindu kidamanu. Nolola mbeye tsa vulahi, olonde malago gange. Malago galakomenyia na ulakunguha na nutumatuma ukunguha dave. Ku icho kijira ni kuvavolela noveye nu musatsa wovo suvila musatsa wovo. Nu uhulila vuluhu vwu muvili gwugwo, nina tsa mudoga uduki akovolele utsi ki na yive umuvolela ma nzitsi kokolola musakulu wange; akuhe vuluhu vula umale utuli yo utsi kwikala garaha.

Muteva: Suvili vaveye yimu vahulila kijira nmalago ki limenya gaveye ho lakini sigaloleka kalunu dave. Vataveye na malago gi limenya galetanga tsisoni tsia vandu vakali mu liva kuli ovoye uyu ku ni umwigitsi olekana naye; olola uyu yagudula mugoye; nu muhulili dave. Ukuyanzitsi sana lwo ovoye lyivika; mwivikanga vulahi mwegositsa; lakini kalunu mundu atuililatsa yila kida igulu, chere eromu; ni kuli kuva tsa ni chahonyo anoho ololandi?

Mutevwa: Vudamanu sana kali uva tsa soni.

Muteva: Munyi mwavisa chahonyo chinyu lakini kalunu mulolandi?

Mutevwa: Kwavisa kalunu sio olola vatigala mivili miele; vamanyia vandu mivili miele ma ohensda tsa mwoyo ku mwana uyu akola ki yiki. Undi yivika tsa inguvu kali itadukana atsie mu nyumba ya nyasaye na onyola aveye mu nyumba ya nyasaye. Ma muchiling'ana okola, novola ku na mang'ana gandi. Kali wali nya nahulila ovolela mwana weve avola; eh, sigaveye mang'ana gatsa kunu; kijira vakikili vang'ele vamanyi da. Yavo vanyala kovolela vana vavo enza; ogende vulahi kandi lisieva usieve vulahi kuli mukristayo vulahi. Apana kodegelitsa muvili ha vandu vaveye; ovetsa nu wenya amang'ana gandi. Na vasatsa va kalunu navo vahenza emoni; sa akohenzela lovega da.

Muteva: Sasa kolola oveye ni lidegela kuhusu liva lia avana ni lyivika lakini makuva gene yago gaitsa ho. Kuli munyi mwalola liva liu vulungi anoho malago gi limenya hanyuma hala nende mulola gatsa yaga. Ku muveye hayi? Sasa mulolanga mumenye tsa na yaga anoho mugelitsa ku kwigitsa ni tsingulu?

Mutevwa: Kali nu wigitsa vatsa mwi vugana da; nu vigitsili hayi. Sasa kuli vaveye munu vandi vahulila ga mbola yaga na nuvavola hambi mwivugana mumanye vavika mukazo na vala vahulila. Kali mama wovo yakwigitsa akovolela nutsia hango hi vijana viveye vitano utakaheye nu mwana oyo dave; kali voheyi vukuliyi oheye mmbutende kijira voheyi si vudaka dave. Ndamuvolela muno vuheyi vwava ku vandu na mundu mwene okola voheyi oyo si yagumila malago dave; yaleka malago na nugimiyi malago kali wenyaku musatsa undi mba; olola tsa musatsa wovo kali nogoni. Na kalunu ndi nulola mundu amanyi gene yago da; kali alola tsa musatsa lwa yatsia inze ngole gange. Kandi koheyela mu nyumba yu musatsa ni vulahi da. Kalunu vagona vutsa kali ku kidali chu mundu musatsa na yive nutula yila nuutsa kogona ku; oh, wavulagila! tsiu.

Muteva: Imbarika yu mundu musatsa. Valala valaho vali vahalika kuli vami; vala ni migitsi jia kuhalika. Kuli mu nyumba ya Trufena aveye mu yiyi. Arusa yali na vakere; mu mwana weve avukamu tsa avola kali baba yali na vakere ma ava mu kilage chene kila. Muganisa mumanya muvola widuyi kabisa mu masaye yaga gatuli kabisa. Mang'ana gene yago ganyala kufwa kabisa?

Mutevwa: Hii. Ku mundu mulala nusuviyi ganyala kufwa. Imbarika yeyo si ndamuvolela munu imbarika mundu musatsa nivaharikanga imbairika idakanga dave. Paga kuduka mwana alivamu aliharike. Liharika liala lia kale musatsa yavugula vakali ni yaharikanga si yalange ni imbarika dave. Mukali mulala wali mulahi wanguha kumuha chukulia na vandi yava handi vava maguve; vadeka vwangu da anoho nadechi chukulia chiche nalia ku anyola chingila dave. Na natsia wu undi ula yakugweda umuvoleye ingila; umuha tuchima tushu, kachai na umuhembeye amatsi vwangu. Niyavika kindu chiche muya siyamanyia vandi dave avolela mukere weve oyo ninguheye yiki umanye uninda vulahi na vandi vala vavakuho vutsa; chanyola si yavima dave yavahetsa. Na kalunu musatsa nanyoye kuli mwene ula agotela mu aleka vakali vandi vala, vakali vene vala si vamanya vava ni imbarika, vakubana na nulindi tsa vulahi, uvasomele kuli wikaye ndi uvavole, muleti na inze mbeye ni kindu dave. Chanyole ninguha ku; ngwumbakiyi inyumba, nguheye mulimi, ku noleta vakali ma uvuli kwumbaka, uvuli ku vakolela gene yago; olola mukali tsana amanya amenye kwive. Na vakali vaveye vavaga vanne mulala utula mutsa uyanzitsa musakulu weve na vandi yava sa agosa kuvaya ho dave; alavaya ho avabimila madiku; avola madiku gavili wovo, gavili wovo, gavili wovo na uyu anyala kuchinda yo kali madiku gavaga kali lisitsa kijira amulomba vulahi.

Muteva: Sasa kolondekana ku liganaganyia lilyo, inze ndakola harusi nu mukali wange mulala ndamusuvila na mukali uyu ovoye vavukani: uyu aveye ni kisinialo, chukulia saleta vwangu dave kandi sa ahulila vwangu dave. Lakini lwo ogendanga onyola mulala aveye na mabenzi gu kusunda ashimbe vwangu vwangu yicho chajira vala vaharika na yive wakola harusi wasuvila kwu mulala uyu. Ku lwa wagana nu wa mapenzi na kugutaguta uyu inze kuli mundu musatsa ngole ndi? Nyala kusila wene yiyi anoho ndi?

Mutevwa: Lwa akodekeye su uyanzi wa kikala, wakalia tsa vulahi. Va arusi tsana si olola ni yoneka. Yoneka ku vuyanzi vwovo dave, yoneka ku vuyanzi vwa vakali valala vasilu. Vakali vala vasilu kali adeka da, yisinga dave na valala visinga da.

Muteva: Ku yive kuvula kumuha tsisoni utula ku tsa garaha?

Mutevwa: Umuhetsa, ni wovo. Umwima dave. Umuha umanya uyu yava ndio. Su uhula ni ngovolela da, ku vakali vavaga vanne vatano; kali Odanga mwami yali na vakali 21 navutsa mukana mmasingira Ganiji yaguta vandi yava vosi; na si yavasura dave, yagenda. Kali valala vamenyanga ivumave iyi avagula yo mulimi, valala vivula tsa na vandu na nvaho vutsa. Yali anyale vakali sirini na moja?

Muteva: Yive walola Odanga ni tsimoni?

Mutevwa: Hii. Odanga mba ni Lososi witu mbo ni hasavatia. Odanga yali Sabatia na witu ni Lososi.

Muteva: Mu nyumba yene yanga Odanga yiyi vana si vakiharika mu; mang'ana ga guga.

Mutevwa: Hii, vaharika mu. Vareka da na undi wa nyasaye yatovola agaya nu vujinga; inze mbe tsa nu mukali wange nzivuli naye avana va ninda.

Sande.

Marriage (interview)

QUESTIONS PREPARED BY KELVIN ALULU

Henry Nyareso: Woman I am asking you why were women getting married and why were men marrying?

Jedda Mmbone: What made men to marry and women to get married is because they were making a lineage. A man you can't just stay without a woman and you be recognized as a person. They were getting married to form a companion of a wife and a husband. A woman will go to the husband to make a family that is what brought those people together. Without a woman these people could not be there, without giving birth these people could not be there. That is why they said that a woman will leave her home and get united to a husband to form a family. That is why you see the lineage of Abraham spreading because god told Abraham that he will gie him many descendants. These lineage is spreading because of that. if you are alone can you give birth? You have to be two inorder to form a lineage like the one that we are in.

Henry Nyareso: Marriage at first was based on love or wealth; the way we see if someone has money they follow him here by here?

Jedda Mmbone: No, long time ago if a husband asked you, even if he has nothing you will go to make your wealth, they were not marrying because of wealth. Virginity was considered as wealth. There was no money so they used to see if a man has land, they could ask the girl to get married to that man and they go to make there wealth. They didn't have wealth; you were coming together then you go and make your wealth, we buy a sheep, a hen. When the hen hatch chicks that is when you look like people in a family. There was no money and they were not looking for one to marry a rich person. Long time ago they used to say "no you grew up from a humble family, get married to a rich person and you will see" people used to ask the poor to get married to the poor so that they can make their wealth. Women were not considering wealth. These days is when someone there is nothing that I can get from this person. Even the parents find themselves supporting the children in such matter "why get married to this person where there is poverty" they used to say you go and make your wealth together and yo love one another.

Henry Nyareso: Why are maragooli or african people not considering a woman as somebody if she gives birth to girls alone at the home where she is married?

Jedda Mmbone: They used to view girls from a different perspective, a girl didn't receive anything where she was raised from. They used to say a girl should get married to another home and the boy should marry a wife and bring her home so that the father can be praised that he is a man who has sons that have married women and brought them home. Boys have powers than girls.

Henry Nyareso: Even for you, you agreed that if someone has given birth to girls alone, they should say that she has given birth to frogs?

Jedda Mmbone: You were worried and you say "I could have given birth to one that would have taken care of me, when these girls will get married I will remain with what?" so if you remain with a boy he will marry a woman, they will make the home.

Henry Nyareso: Why are people not allowed to marry from the same clan, or marry a relative?

Jedda Mmbone: It was difficult for you, you are at your home, your girl has been married. The girl that is there has given birth then your brother marries a girl and gives birth to a child. These children cannot marry each other. A brother and a sister cannot marry. If you had sex together you were heading towards death. You were not making your lineage; your lineage was nothing. These days they say; if you have married from the same clan you look for herbalists. If the girl has refused to leave the boy and the boy has refused to leave the girl, that relationship is not normal. It is not from the ancestor. They used to keep a sign on the top of their house, because they have refused then they wonder what to do and they decide to put a sign on the roof of their house.

Henry Nyareso: They used to keep the sign (it was a bucket that was cut then put on the roof) on the grass thatched house, these days relatives marry but the sign is not kept on top if the house.

Jedda Mmbone: That is the reason to why you see there is a lot of death. If you just look at the relative who married a sister, the home is not good, there are lame people, there are blind. They didn't give birth to a normal child.

Henry Nyareso: It is a dangerous thing, men of these days are in that condition we see children walking with their sisters and mistakes happen. Do you see these things continuing like that or how?

Jedda Mmbone: How can they teach and the grandfathers are getting attracted to their granddaughters? If we return to that way we will perish very fast. You wont finish the years that you were given. Your sister in law should never cheat you to sleep together; you will have brought death in that village.

Henry Nyareso: If we are talking about getting in good terms between a boy and a girl; is it a girl who is soothing the boy?

Jedda Mmbone: It was a boy who was soothing the girl. These days children are spoiled when a boy says that he wants the girl; the girl starts to follow him immediately. Long ago you used to run away and a boy can chase you for even six months inorder to reach you.

Henry Nyareso: These days weddings are lightly and some laws are feared by people.

Jedda Mmbone: Long time there was a wedding for singing and the other one was for matching. Like the one that you see people coming in vehicles. If I saw that I have nothing, I used to go for that of matching.

Henry Nyareso: The laws of life, you have said that there were women who are teaching them. Who can teach them today?

Jedda Mmbone: These days we do not have, you are seeing us encouraging the yourth to take heed of our instructions. You should look at my ways, you should see when I came from Maragooli to this place what am I doing; have I done any wrong thing. If you see I am okey, you should follow my instructions. They will make you live long without moving up and down. That is the reason to why we are encouraging you that if you have a husband trust him, if you have the desire for sex, take a vehicle and visit your husband. If he asks you why you have come, tell him that you hae come to visit him as your husband. He will treat you and you will finish that desire and then you return and relax.

Henry Nyareso: I believe there are people inside here who are listening, the laws of life are there but they are not considered these days. Those that do not have the laws of life, they bring shame on women who are not in the same condition or age as you, you are like a teacher. You see this one has cut the rope; if you have not heard. You have made us happy when you told us the ways in which people conduct themselves. These days you see one with the stomach outside, it is open. It's like being naked or how do you see?

Jedda Mmbone: It is very bad you even become ashame.

Henry Nyareso: You used to hide your naked bodies, how do you see it these days?

Jedda Mmbone: We used to cover ours, these days you see they are naked they show people their bodies. You get worried and you wonder what is this child doing. Some put on clothes that one is not supposed to enter with in the house of God and you find her inside there. You just keep quiet because you know if you speak something it will be a different issue. Even the mother when she hears you speaking about that she says that they are things that came to this world, since they are young they do not know it. They can tell their children to walk accordingly, and dance well like a christian. Do not shake your body where people are; you may be looking for other things. And men are not looking with the eye; the way we look by side.

Henry Nyareso: Now we see you worried with the ways of children and their dressing mode. But those things are there. You were seeing the right ways or the ways of life in the past and the new that are penetrating through these days. Where are you? Do you preffer putting up with the current or forcing the teaching of the past?

Jedda Mmbone: Even if it is teaching they are not coming to church; where will you teach them from. Now the way we are in here there are some who are hearing, and if you ask them to come to church and hear, they try and other hear. Your mother used to tell you that if you go to ahome where there are five boys; you should not commit adultery with another boy. Even if you feel like, you do it with a neighbor because adultery does not lack. I will tell you that adultery has been on people and the person who was doing adultery is the one who didn't follow the laws, she left the laws. If you get hold of the laws you do not even want another husband, you just see your husband even when you are asleep. These days people don't know that, she feels doing her own things because the husband is not near. Again commit adultery in your husband's house is not good. They sleep on another husbands bed and when you come and sleep on it, you have been blinded.

Henry Nyareso: The ego of a man, there were some who had several wives like chief, like the house that Trufena is in, Arusa had several wives. A son is born and he says that father had wives, and he remains in that misbehaviour. In church you normaly say that one should pray and repent for this behaviour to go away. Can these behaviour get finished?

Jedda Mmbone: Yes, to some people, if you believe it can get finished. I have told you before that for a man that thing remains in the blood until a child will be born who will inherit it too. Long time ago a man used to pick on women and have them. One of the women was good and she used to give him food, and the others were bad. They could cook very fast, or if he tasted their meals they were not good. And when he returns to the first wife she gives him baked maize flour, tea and she has boiled the water. He used to give that wife something good, and he tells her that she has been good to him and she treats him well and the others were just there. Whatever he got he didn't deny but he shared with them. These days when a husband gets something he forgets the other women. These women begin to have grudges, they start to fight. But if you take good care of them and you tell them the way they should stay and you explain to them that you are the provider but you do not have something, whatever I have if I share with you, I build you a house, I have given you land. If you marry women then you do not build a house for them, you do not do that for them, do you think the wife will stay with you? And among the three or four women one comes out who loves the husband, but he will not stop sleeping with other women, he will assign days; he say two days for one same to the other women and he can stay there for three days or one week, because he is treated well by that woman.

Henry Nyareso: Now according to your thoughts, I did a wedding with my one wife and I have trusted her, but she has some weakness. She does not bring food on the table very fast, she does not respond quickly. But when you walk, you find one with love that brings you close that is the reason to why some are doing polygamy but you have done a wedding and you have trusted your own. Now when you find the one with love that is attractive, I like a man what should I do? Can I jump there or what?

Jedda Mmbone: Once she has cooked for you, you have liked it and you have sat and eaten it well. The ones who have wedded you've seen them they are spoiled. They spoil not because of their wish, he get's spoiled because of some women who are fools. There are some women who are fools, they do not cook, some do not bath.

Henry Nyareso: So instead of ashaming her, you just leave her slowly?

Jedda Mmbone: You will just give her because she is yours, you won't deny her. You give her and you know that she is like that. Even a famous leader in Maragoli by the name Odanga, had 21 women but one wife defeated all; but he did not despise them, he was still visiting them. He brought some land. Some gave birth with other people, he could not manage 21 women.

Henry Nyareso: Did you see Odanga with your eyes?

Jedda Mmbone: Yes Odanga was staying in Sabatia and our home is Lososi(it the neighbouring village to sabatia)

Henry Nyareso: In that family children have several wives; as it was done by their grandfather.

Jedda Mmbone: Yes they have, they have not left it. The one that has been chosen by God he says that it is foolishness, he prefer having one wife who gives birth to children that they will take care of.

Thank you.